Men of Silicon Valley: We’re sexist, we just don’t know it.
As someone who moved to San Francisco about a year ago from Dallas, I was really struck by how progressive everything here was. Silicon Valley seems to be the embodiment of the American Dream, and one of the few places left in the country where you have a good shot at realizing it, especially in technology. We like to pride ourselves on being at the cutting edge – technologically, economically, and socially. I know sexism has been a big debate around here lately, so I want to relate some of what I’ve seen as a man who’s relatively new to the scene. In short, there’s definitely a problem.
Last week, my company (Selligy) was competing in a startup competition against 7 other teams. We ended up winning, but barely, with tough competition coming from the only female founder in the group, Kati Bicknell at Kindara.
Kindara is a mobile app for women to track fertility signs, with the goal of conceiving quickly and successfully. It’s a big problem, and one that a woman should be behind solving. Before Kati’s presentation even started, however, it felt like many of the men in the room suddenly reverted to Junior High.
As the event’s host introduced Kindara as an app to help women get pregnant, someone in the audience shouted “I can’t wait to see the demo!” Comments and puns continued after the pitch, many from the all-male panel of judges: “Fertile markets”, “market penetration”, etc., with a pretty giggly audience.
It was all pretty juvenile. Clearly Kati’s startup was taken seriously, as she almost won, but it’s one more thing to have to play along with and endure. Kati chuckled along with everyone else, but I think that’s just a defense mechanism she’s employing. If I were Kati, what I would hear in those jokes is a discomfort among the men in the room when it comes to a woman talking seriously about a sexual issue, and I don’t think it’s a problem a man would face.
Women are a big market, maybe the biggest, and women founders and engineers bring a unique and needed perspective to female-specific pain points. We need them involved, but any women in the audience for the pitch listening to the juvenile wisecracks probably felt discouraged from doing something like this. Why would they want to put so much effort into starting a company if that’s what they would have to endure in front of hundreds of people every time they want to promote their business?
To put it in user experience terms, some men in the room were adding unnecessary and unfair friction for women founders.
When I related the above story about Kati’s presentation to my good friend Lauren Roth, I could see her heart sink. Her voice lowered as she told me how humiliated and discouraged she would have felt, and that she’s faced the same thing herself.
Lauren is an awesome hacker, and has been highly involved in the Drupal community. She organized Drupal events in Austin for years, and helped organize the largest and most profitable Drupal conference to date in San Francisco after moving here. She has since, however, sidelined herself from those gatherings. This is not due a lack of interest in the industry, but because of how she’s treated as a woman.
Lauren is attractive and fashionable, and as a result attracts a lot of attention. But that’s not what should define her. Unfortunately, for many in the community, they can’t seem to see past her face, even when she’s next to them in a conference hall, in front of a computer, typing away.
At conferences and meetups, she is constantly asked what she’s doing there. Men are always asking if she’s in marketing or PR or something, and nobody seems to takes her seriously as a hacker, at least not upon first meeting her.
As an introvert, it’s already difficult for her to attend events like this, but to then have to put up with everyone asking if she’s there with her boyfriend, or hitting on her, and not accepting her as one of their own because of how she looks makes the experience intolerable. She is now disengaged and working on her own, away from the support of the community. That’s a real shame, because Lauren is one of the coolest people I know, and would make any organization a better place.
Kati and Lauren aren’t alone. Even women at the very top have to deal with this. How many hours did it take for Marissa Mayer’s pregnancy to be on the front page of every tech blog and news outlet? And within minutes, there were already rumblings about her ability to cope with the job and her hormones at the same time. We really need to grow the fuck up.
I think many women don’t speak out because they expect to be told that they have no sense of humor, or that they’re being over sensitive – so let me just say that I don’t think that is the case. I’m speaking out because this affects people I care about.
I’ve spoken to several female friends about this issue this week, both inside and outside of the tech community, and every one of them has stories to tell. Some of them are horrifying. With those experiences always in the back of women’s minds, is it any wonder than even little jokes can make them feel like outsiders who don’t belong in the room?
For all you geeks who need data, check out NPR’s recent report on ‘stereotype threats.’ The research focuses on why women are leaving scientific fields, but it absolutely applies to tech as well. It’s eye opening, and something we need to be aware of. I think it’s fair to say based on my conversations with women that most of the ones in male-dominated industries like technology have a little voice in their head telling them that they don’t fit in, and they don’t belong, and they frequently have interactions and experiences with men which reinforce that idea. Overcoming that is a challenge most men can’t really appreciate.
I don’t mean for this to be taken as a criticism of any events, organizers, all the men out there, or as a patronizing defense of women, who have proven they can take care of themselves despite all this nonsense. But for the guys, you all need to be aware of the effect our words and behavior have on our fellow females in the field. It may be subtle (and sometimes not so subtle), but it’s real.
The first step toward fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one. If you’re a guy reading this, you may be thinking “I’m not sexist! I treat everyone equally!” Maybe that’s true, but it’s more likely you just haven’t noticed. There is definitely a problem here of which we need to be self aware. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it myself in the past, but I’m coming to realize that the little behavior changes men have when a woman walks in the room are noticed, and have a big impact.
We all need to do what we can to encourage everyone to be a part of this wonderful community we have here in the bay area. This is an incredible place full of opportunity for people of all backgrounds, and that’s something we can all be proud of. Our work is not done yet, though. Next time you see a cute girl at a tech conference, don’t ask her about her boyfriend, ask her what her favorite technology stack is. Next time a woman is pitching a female-targeted business, treat it seriously and help her feel like she really belongs. And maybe a few female judges wouldn’t hurt either.
And for all the women out there – keep up the good work and please don’t get discouraged. Our world will be a better place with more of you in the game.
Note: I would like to thank Kati and Lauren for both their input on this article, as well as their courage to let me share some of their personal stories.
You’re looking at a very niche market of women..
Of course a hot babe at some convention is going to get hit on. Naturally, she would be getting hit on wherever she happens to be. It’s hard for her to engage in technical conversations because she’s so attractive that men want her in bed. That’s what’s on their mind – fornication. We can’t help it, it’s our drive to procreate.
Honestly, most women LOVE this. They LOVE the attention, they LOVE feeling sexy. I bet she says she hates those things, but deep down it makes her day. People want to be wanted. If you were to reverse the situation with a handsome man being chatted up by women, he’s going to feel good about himself. And guess what? The women will just be smiling and laughing and really not caring about what he’s saying, just admiring his good looks. I wonder what’s on their minds..
And as to why women are treated as inferior, my guess is that men have more doubt when it comes to a woman doing the right thing. Women are biologically often more emotional than men. Decision making is clearly correlated with state of mind / state of emotion. Since emotions can often cloud someone’s perspective on things, women are more susceptible in making a poor(er) decision.
‘CallMeSexist': Ok, I will.
Apparently this problem is bigger than I thought. Just when I’m starting to think that men are getting a clue and we’re making some progress, a bottom-feeding troll who hides behind anonymity like you comes along and smashes that dream. Thanks for making men everywhere look like knuckle dragging idiots.
Hey man I was just generalizing – don’t call me a troll. I’m not saying all men think this way. I’m giving my views on the general population; looking at the problem at a larger scale. I’m trying to create some perspective on how others might see things, and trying to dissect traits based on our biology.
I also stated that if you were to reverse the situation, women would likely act the same way. So that makes women “knuckle dragging idiots” as well, which seems pretty accurate in terms of evolution.
Cheers bud
This is a fake, manufactured crisis, and it is spreading. I’ve worked with women successfully all my career. But now I’ve got an open req for two developers and a designer. I’m going out of my way to find qualified men for these positions. No way I would take a risk someone who might be on a social engineering campaign, instead of being 100% focused on the concerns of my business.
This guy probably wrote the article to impress Kati & Lauren
CallMeSexist_but–
I am hugely entertained that you seem to see no contradiction between your assertions:
a) men cannot help but try to sleep with every attractive woman
b) men are less emotional and thus make better decisions than women
Thanks for posting the article. You might take a look at weareallaweso.me as another way to encourage participation. Encourage your friends to submit talk proposals.
Here’s a resource about stereotype threat. http://reducingstereotypethreat.org/reduce.html
And, I’m often curious about ways in which personality types, gender, and other human traits contribute to productivity in work, so I squirrel away articles about these things. You might enjoy reading “Evidence for a Collective Intelligence Factor in the Performance of Human Groups” given the unexpected gender component in the results.
https://www.sciencemag.org/content/330/6004/686
[…] This “c factor” is not strongly correlated with the average or maximum individual intelligence of group members but is correlated with the average social sensitivity of group members, the equality in distribution of conversational turn-taking, and the proportion of females in the group.
If results like that hold, entrepreneurs should be enthusiastic about diversity in hiring.
@Smith:
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=define:assertion&oq=define:assertion
Thanks for posting. Sadly, some of the respondents prove your point. Women are avoiding technology careers and heading to the life sciences, law, and other intellectually stimulating careers, the data is solid on this trend. I have been in high tech for 25 years, and the decline is evident. I am still one of the 5% at most tech conferences I attend. Chivalry and good manners are not antiquated concepts, there is a place for them in high tech, wish we could reinvigorate them.
Actually, the name’s Adelaide.
First, this is a great piece. I feel you did a really good job of relaying anecdotal evidence without pandering to generalizations or patronizing your female subjects.
What I find most interesting is how the examples of sexism in your story and from your *not sexist* commenters (/trolls. Just own it already) play almost comically into the stereotype of the sexist male. I often read examples like this and think, “This person can’t possibly think he’s not being sexist with a comment like that”. (Hint: if you’re speaking in hyperbole and/or contradicting yourself within the same comment, you’re probably on the right track for a sexist/racist/homophobic remark.)
Another aspect that makes this so intriguing to me is the fact that it appears to be so commonplace in the tech industry. This could be due to the attention it gets because of the (not untrue) perception that “techies” are a liberally minded, hyper intelligent bunch, and therefore, sexism is unexpected and disappointing. Or it could be because the liberal minded, hyper intelligent members of the group are quicker to point out the faults of their groupmates than are those of other sectors.
I am an outsider to the tech industry. My training is in international politics. So naturally, I’ve seen more than my fair share of blatant sexism and rampant ignorance on gender-related issues. (“War on Women” sound familiar to anyone?) Here’s the minor difference though: The people in the field I come from thrive on interpersonal networking. If you do not know how to interact with people face-to-face, and especially without cracking a potentially offensive “joke” – especially one aimed at a characteristic outside of someone’s control – you will fail in this industry. It might be less likely if you’re a man, and people may make inappropriate commentary in private after the fact, but I cannot even imagine attending a professional function and having someone make a comment out loud during a presentation, let alone a sexist joke. (There was once a question to the former head of the EU about whether or not he would join the Occupy protesters in Barcelona, but that was about the worst of it.)
The tech industry does not have, nor has it needed, a history of this same type of interaction. As a matter of fact, many of the techies I meet pride themselves on their stereotypically “nerdy” qualities, often openly crediting their success with the hundreds of hours they dedicated to sitting in front of a computer screen, learning their trade and honing their skills. Now, this is not a character flaw. But neither does it encourage an environment of personal interaction, nor is personal interaction particularly necessary in many technology fields in order to be successful.
Do I feel this contributes to the sexist attitudes of some men and women (yes, women) in the tech industry? I do. Do I feel this justifies those attitudes? Like hell. To feel that someone is different and therefore “wrong” or less capable or less human than you IS a character flaw. A huge one. And though it may not affect you as you spend your time making the next great technological product, expect that it will affect how people perceive you face-to-face, which is going to make marketing that product a real pain in the ass.
Speaking of which, hey Mark, what’s the name of your company?
Oh my.
Brian, this was an excellent piece. Thank you for writing it and contributing to the ongoing effort in our field of raising awareness.
@CallMeSexist_but: sir, you are being a troll. A massively sexist, ignorant troll. You say you want to “create some perspective on how others might see things” except you refuse to acknowledge the perspective of your assumptions being wrong. So let me burst your fragile bubble for you: you’re wrong. Very, very wrong. Your believed “knowledge” of the inner workings of women, how they think and how they truly feel about these problems, is entirely dismissive of everything. Your argument boils down to “boys will be boys” ergo we shouldn’t bother trying to change anything. Guys like you are a huge part of the problem in our industry, the problem that alienates and discourages women so pervasively. Guys like you and @Mark and @SteveScribbler up there.
Let’s break this down:
“hot babe”
Your chosen terminology already dismisses the woman as an individual and a professional, who should be considered first and foremost for who she is and what she does, not her appearance or attractiveness. Describing women as “hot babes” is entirely counter-productive because it does exactly the wrong thing you could do: focus on attractiveness, not merit or person. In the context of a professional setting, or a discussion _about_ professional settings, attractiveness is—and should be treated as—entirely irrelevant to the debate.
“It’s hard for her to engage in technical conversations because she’s so attractive that men want her in bed.”
No, it’s hard for her to engage in technical conversations with men who can’t see past her appearance and attractiveness. Men like you, apparently. It’s entirely fine and easy and enjoyable for her—or any woman—to engage in technical conversations with men, provided the men don’t behave like a giant penis with legs and a mouth. Any man worthy of respect _must_ be able, at a bare minimum, to see women for more than a potential mating partner. If all you see (attractive) women as is “someone to try and get into my bed” then you are failing at being a respectable individual altogether, for you are failing so utterly to show other human beings the bare minimum of respect they deserve: individuality. Agency. Someone who does things on their own, has their own life to lead, their own ambitions, efforts they put into life, things they do and create and everything else they may want to do _on their own terms_. That includes potentially sleeping with you, which, with such a disrespectful (and dismissive) attitude, will be a lot harder for you to achieve than it needs to be.
“That’s what’s on their mind – fornication.”
While society sure does its best to try and convince us all that sex is the only motivator men have, you are in no position to speak on behalf of men. In fact, I think most men would be appalled by your simplified explanation of how they supposedly act and think. I know I’m quite ashamed and disgusted by having to share a gender with you, let alone an industry. Perhaps I’m being needlessly antagonizing here, but you really seem to have no clue how offensive—to men AND women—you are behaving.
“We can’t help it, it’s our drive to procreate.”
Please get yourself fixed. Oh, I don’t mean that in the pet kind of way (though it wouldn’t be a loss to society), I mean that in the psychological immaturity kind of way: you are not an animal with no self-awareness or self-control. You are not an amoeba, as evidenced by your ability to write garbage on the Internet. Start learning how to control your own impulses and thoughts like a proper human being, and apply this simple rule of thumb to your own life some more: when talking to an attractive woman, ask yourself this: are you thinking about how to get her into bed? If so, tell yourself to stop and pay attention to what she’s saying, and to respect her as a person, as a professional, and as someone who is not in the world for you to “conquer” or seduce or have naked sexy fun times with. Maybe she IS interested in that idea, but regardless of that possibility, you owe it to her, and to us all, to stop yourself from constantly behaving like a giant penis with legs and a mouth.
“Honestly, most women LOVE this. They LOVE the attention, they LOVE feeling sexy.”
Have you ever asked any? And listened respectfully to their answers? Because every single time this discussion takes place, I see women say that they are getting tired of this, that they hate it, that they wish they could just get on with their jobs or have a normal conversation without the male participant(s) leering at her like she’s a piece of meat. Women may enjoy feeling sexy, but that’s something that should come on their terms, not yours. And I’m really quite sure that at a technical conference or any professional environment, really, women would much rather be treated as equals, as other professionals, as people who have an opinion that should be considered and listened to respectfully. Not as just a potential bed partner. And I’m so sure of that because I *do* ask a lot of women this question—and listen to their answers. And they all say the same: they’re tired of having to deal with men like you. It’s a credit to them that they’re so patient with people like you that they don’t constantly tell it to your face, but then again, society has systematically trained many of them that being assertive in the face of certain men puts them at a risk of potential violence, harm or (severe) vitriol and harassment.
“I bet she says she hates those things, but deep down it makes her day.”
I’ll take that bet. Does $10,000 work for you? No? How about we just bet about your real identity?
“People want to be wanted.”
People also want to be respected and treated as people, which is a desire you’re probably not familiar with since you’ve always had society give you that respect and treatment (along with catering to almost all your other whims, as well). Women, on the other hand, often have to fight for that basic human right. Being wanted is an amazing luxury in the face of that.
“If you were to reverse the situation with a handsome man being chatted up by women, he’s going to feel good about himself.”
Of course he would. A handsome man already has society treating him as a hero who is to be admired and catered to at all times. The benefits a handsome man gets from that privilege—being male, and doubly so if he’s white and straight as well—are countless, far too numerous for anyone to keep track of. A handsome man doesn’t need to work twice as hard his entire life to be respected for his work, whatever it is he does; a handsome man will get respect and admiration even if he does _awful_ work. That’s just how society rolls, contributed in no small amount by people like you who pat other men on the back at every opportunity, and criticize the work of women with a fervor they’re not even aware of themselves.
“And guess what? The women will just be smiling and laughing and really not caring about what he’s saying, just admiring his good looks. I wonder what’s on their minds.”
This may shock you, but women don’t only think of sex all the time. And, guess what? Neither do men! I see that you base your world view entirely on your own personal experiences, with apologies to your hand, but please start entertaining the idea that not every man is like you, and not every woman is secretly like you “deep down inside” either. And, furthermore, please start entertaining the idea that maybe, just maybe, you don’t quite know everything there is to know about men and women’s motivations in life.
“And as to why women are treated as inferior, my guess is that men have more doubt when it comes to a woman doing the right thing.”
My guess is that men who treat women as inferior are suffering from a lack of confidence in their own abilities (or sexual competence—or both) and therefore enjoy the ability society grants them to suppress women in order to make themselves feel more capable and superior than they really are.
“Women are biologically often more emotional than men. Decision making is clearly correlated with state of mind / state of emotion.”
Women are also trained by society to understand empathy and read people’s motivations and intentions much more accurately than men are, which would make them categorically far better decision-makers in any circumstance that involves at least one other human being.
“Since emotions can often cloud someone’s perspective on things…”
You must be suffering from a great many conflicting emotions on this matter, then.
“… women are more susceptible in making a poor(er) decision.”
Citation needed, since your comment proves otherwise.
“Hey man I was just generalizing – don’t call me a troll. I’m not saying all men think this way.”
You’re contradicting yourself already.
“I’m giving my views on the general population; looking at the problem at a larger scale.”
And we’re telling you your views are incredibly offensive, demonstrably inaccurate, and dismissive of the problems we have already identified. You also fail to actually do any of that “looking at the problem at a larger scale” stuff, unless you count reducing the “problem” to “men just can’t help themselves”?
“and trying to dissect traits based on our biology.”
You’re doing it wrong. We don’t get our traits “biologically” in this regard. What we get “biologically” is our reproductive organs, and for women that comes with the associated menstrual cycle as “adults” (for whatever age we might today consider that word to mean). Our brain functions, our behaviors and our personality—our “traits” as you consider them—are neutral and equal at birth, and shaped from then on by our upbringing and our society around us. Women aren’t “more susceptible” to anything than men are based simply on their biological difference; if “women” (a categorization so vast and wide-ranging I feel uncomfortable using such a huge generalization) are different in any way, it’s because society treats them differently their entire lives. We are a species moved immensely by external inputs, and these external influences affect us whether we want them to or not. This is proven by the fact that someone called you a troll, and you felt the need to defend yourself even though you already were anonymous to us. You were unable to resist that external input, much like how I was unable to read your comment and not feel sickened by your views, no matter how fiercely I disagree with them.
“I also stated that if you were to reverse the situation, women would likely act the same way.”
“likely”? Hmm, nope, not how you put it at all. You’re backpedalling now, almost certainly because you realized that you weren’t surrounded by people who already agree with your views and now you suddenly have to defend your outlandish claims.
“ So that makes women “knuckle dragging idiots” as well, which seems pretty accurate in terms of evolution.”
Nope, just you.
As for @Mark…
“This is a fake, manufactured crisis, and it is spreading.”
The only thing fake and manufactured here is your sense of self-worth. You’re about as bad as climate change deniers, except without the awareness of your own malicious agenda.
Sexism does exist, the problem is that there is massive reverse sexism as well. Men who go into nursing are joked about being gay, women who go into science are ridiculed.
The problem is YOU act as if it’s a ONE sided coin, when as a scientist you should know that there is always the other side. Men are PUSHED into the Authoritarian role at a young age, even when we WANT to be more ‘team’ oriented the culture of the US that is 100% anti-nerd makes pushes you into a square block, BURNS off the edges over and over, and the pressure mounts and mounts.
You want to make ENEMIES of the Entirety of Male Society? Keep putting out One-Sided articles like this that COMPLETELY IGNORE the fact that Men don’t really even know HOW to relate to a woman in the leadership role, we’ve never been taught how.
You keep blaming men, and we’ll take the blame, and then turn it around and just accept that we are what you say we are, stereotypical chauvinists.
Oh and just in case you think ‘liberal progressives’ will save you, think again. My gay friends would love it if all women were banned from the workplace, so they could be the most feminine ones there.
Thanks for this really nice article, Brian! You really seem to get it. It is incredibly wearing to deal with this daily and then no matter how polite or low-key we are in bringing it up, there’s a huge backlash. Those of us who have stuck with it over the years have stayed in the field because we have a high tolerance for that sort of BS! We’re putting up with it! And yet mention it at all and it’s like we’re opening the gates of hell. It is very odd.
I would point out though that it is not just a problem for women who are considered conventionally attractive. If we aren’t, then guys tend to pay no attention at all to our contributions, instead of the wrong kind of attention.
About men acting weird when women simply come into the room — this made me think of how people react to my wheelchair. I have visible disabilities and when I meet people they often can’t help making little joking remarks, not necessarily directly offensive ones but it is always annoying. Stuff like “Well lucky you, you get to be sitting down!” It is clearly because they are uncomfortable. We aren’t able to just converse about whatever we’re doing — they can’t stop focusing on this one thing that marks me as different. False jocularity works similarly in gendered situations; it indicates discomfort and uncertainty. If guys are used to thinking of women as a sort of alien species who operate by different rules, and who are encountered in a different context where everything is sexually charged, then they’re just plain disconcerted when they’re in a work related context. I find this really sad for men as well as for women. I feel lucky personally to have had great friendships and professional relationships with people of many genders.
[…] Men of Silicon Valley: We’re Sexist, We Just Don’t Know It: “We like to pride ourselves on being at the cutting edge – technologically, economically, and socially. I know sexism has been a big debate around here lately, so I want to relate some of what I’ve seen as a man who’s relatively new to the scene. In short, there’s definitely a problem.” […]
“I’m going out of my way to find qualified men for these positions. No way I would take a risk someone who might be on a social engineering campaign, instead of being 100% focused on the concerns of my business.”
Speaking from a completely self-serving place, may I please say a hearty “Thank you” to all the men in Silicon Valley who have refused to hire a woman because she’s “too hot” or “has kids” or “a radical feminist” or “an affirmative action hire?” Thank you. Because of you I’ve had the chance to work with some amazing women. If you didn’t think like that, you might have hired them and I’d never have met them. And now that I’m a hiring manager, I get to interview and hire them myself.
Again, thank you.
I got out of bed to come and say that I read this article earlier, and the vitriol coming up in the comments has me completely unable to sleep. Yes, the worst in people comes out behind the anonymity of the internet, but when every article like this elicits the same types of responses, and we keep experiencing the same problems in our field, it’s hard to believe that these ridiculously sexist opinions are a minority.
The arguments made by the likes of CallMeSexistBut are always made on the flimsiest of anecdotes about human nature, desires, traits, whatever, that they put old wives to shame in their ability to pass off made-up things as fact. There are endless numbers of us women, in tech, who have had negative experiences with sexism. We can repeat until we run out of breath that we don’t want to be asked out, leered at, touched inappropriately, or otherwise treated like meat when we’re trying to present ourselves as professionals, and yet there are still people who seem to honestly believe that “deep down”, we still just want to get nailed. They’ll back up these assertions with comments like, “it’s okay if he’s good-looking, it’s sexist if he’s not”. They find ways to blame everything but their own behaviour for eliciting unwanted sexual attention. They make broad generalizations about the nature of women, accusing us of being all sorts of negative things like uncontrollably over-emotional, manipulative, weak, and so on.
This isn’t a difficult topic. We want to be seen the same as other peers in our field. We want to be respected for our ideas and accomplishments. We want to be able to socialize at business functions without feeling like we’re required to wear some ghastly, baggy, mumu type thing to desexualize ourselves, and we don’t want to have to fear for our physical safety around people who should be our equals. Articles like this are excellent, but to me, what I see here in the comments is so demoralizing, that it outweighs the article itself.
CallMeSexistBut, what about you walking to a room in order to talk tech and discovering that you’re surrounded by a whole bunch of various women (not hot chicks) and men, and all of them are bored with your tech talks and want to procreate with you instead. You would probably love it more then talking tech, would you? You don’t sound like seriously interested in tech coming to those meetings, more so in procreation… Also, the problem of chronically being horny is fixed by regular sex (in proper settings). But it’s a Catch-22, you show wrong intentions in wrong places, women don’t take you seriously as a date… Let’s Call It SexLess.
Faruk Ateş: Thank you for one of the best take-downs of a sexist troll I have every seen. You totally get it. What you have written should be turned into a quick and handy explanation for all the guys in tech who don’t get it. Again, thank you.
@JM — Why the hostility? Talking about sexism against women doesn’t somehow erase or bury sexism against men. They are interrelated but totally different in their causes and consequences. Women are excluded from tech communities for a variety of reasons, and that’s a problem. Little boys are forced into set gender roles from a young age, and that’s a problem. This isn’t a zero sum game where any effort to break down barriers for women automatically makes things worse for me. In fact I’d argue it’s the opposite. The only people doing serious work on breaking down gender barriers are in the feminism/gender studies/LGBTQ community. We need to work together, not tear each other down.
@Kris, I don’t disagree with you that gendering male children is harmful to them, nor that there are things that are hard about being a man. But I question the relevance of bringing it up here–it ends up seeming like a distraction from the issue. Here’s an analogy: Imagine that your spouse always yells at you. One day, you bring it up and say, “Hey, I don’t like it when you yell at me.” If they were like, “Yeah, but you know, you always leave the garage door open!” They might have a perfectly valid point about you and your garage door habits, but it would be insensitive and rude to bring it up then.
If you go and create a place for more conversation about how to change the things in society that make it hard to be a boy or a man, I would totally applaud you. I would even probably join you in your conversation (I have a newborn baby boy so the issues are especially on my radar right now). But it doesn’t seem appropriate to come in and take over someone’s conversation about something else to talk about it.
I also agree with you about intersectionality and the importance of different groups working together–oppression in one place can’t be solved without working on oppression everywhere. I’ve recently been reading a couple of great blogs (lovelivegrow.com and raisingmyboychick.com) that have a feminist focus and are really engaging the issues of gender and boy children. You might really enjoy the conversations going on there.
Incidentally, you might want to check out these links. As it turns out, comments like yours are so common that they have a special name: “But What About the Menz?” or “Patriarchy Hurts Men, Too (PHMT).” You might want to check out these pages that are dedicated to the phenomenon of PHMT comments.
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html (check out especially the derail using entitlement section)
Great article, Brian! The truth is, women are still facing sexism daily, and not just in STEM related fields. The problem is that most people don’t see it – like you said, we are sexist and don’t know it. Our culture is in this weird place where we KNOW sexism/racism/homophobia etc. is wrong, but these feelings still exist and are ingrained so deeply in the collective psyche that they can be hard to recognize. Inappropriate jokes, front page news stories about a female’s ability to have a child and continue to excel at work, CNN bloggers accusing attractive females of destroying the geeky culture – all of these are symptoms. Sure, people aren’t outright admitting to others that they feel a woman might not belong (because that is wrong), but those feelings are being exposed by actions.
Admitting that there is a problem is the first step to fixing it (as you pointed out), but I suspect it is the most difficult part. Which would explain some of the comments above. The man doth protest too much, methinks.
Thanks again for the great post!
Truth: I run a very public company (in the sense that there are lots of vocal users, it’s not publicly held) and two public blogs and yet I hardly breathe a word about sexism in SV because I fear very real repercussions. Especially when it comes to potential investors. (Your fabulous piece doesn’t differentiate between those in tech and those funding tech, though I think sexism runs rampant in both.)
I believe many high-profile women in this scene don’t bring it up publicly because they know they’d never get another job, or find funding, in the Valley again. At least not in the foreseeable future.
The trollish comments aren’t surprising. I just always wonder if these guys realize that it’s not like “this” in all other industries. And that those of use who’ve been outside of tech recognize the stark difference?
I am fortunate to work in technology services for a company that cares about equal opportunities and diversity in the workplace. The head of the department is a woman. I don’t see gender stereotyping going on at work. However, I have seen it at other companies, online, and in the video gaming world as well.
It seems to me that there are some women that interact with male coworkers better than other women, and it’s not all about being super-attractive or not. I think it’s about establishing a communication baseline – finding a common interest – and then making a friendly connection through that shared interest. If a girl wants to get into the technology field, maybe she should take interest in comics and videogames and other stuff that her male coworkers like. You don’t have to become a tomboy to interact with guys, but if you’re completely the opposite and alien to them then how are you supposed to communicate at all? Having a second line of connection (besides technology) can really help. Or consider swapping out that pink blouse for a geeky t-shirt under your blazer to show some geek cred. Geek fashion is a thing now.
Unless this world suddenly becomes a female-dominated society, there are always going to be some guys that will refuse to see women as equals in technology professions. It behooves us women to anticipate it and learn how to deal with it productively and professionally.
Maybe it’s because I’m not in Silicon Valley, but I know damn well I’m sexist. I just try to keep that aspect of my personality gagged, straitjacketed, and locked in a padded room in the basement of a nuclear-hardened bunker, because letting it out is counterproductive.
However, SeattleGeekGirl, I disagree with the notion of women who want to earn a living in this trade taking an interest in games, comics, sci-fi, etc. for the sole purpose of building rapport with men. If you were into these things to begin with, great, but don’t be fake, and don’t talk to me about stuff not related to work just because you want to “connect with me”. I’m not there to connect with you. I’m there to earn a living.
Be competent, and don’t take any shit from men who can’t get their heads around the notion that a woman can be their equal as a programmer, if not their superior. The first programmer was a woman. So was the first science fiction novelist, unless you buy the notion that Mary Shelley didn’t write Frankenstein herself. Don’t take any shit from me, either; it’s not your fault that my social skills are sometimes little better than that of a drunk Dalek.
Brian, thank you for such a poignant article. I feel less alone now. I would love to connect with the 2 women you wrote about.
You can have them email me.
CW
Hillary couldn’t have summed it up better herself:
http://bostonreview.tumblr.com/post/29411146225/hillary-clinton-on-being-asked-about-her-clothes
[…] Men of Silicon Valley: We’re sexist, we just don’t know it. “Women are a big market, maybe the biggest, and women founders and engineers bring a unique and needed perspective to female-specific pain points. We need them involved, but any women in the audience for the pitch listening to the juvenile wisecracks probably felt discouraged from doing something like this. Why would they want to put so much effort into starting a company if that’s what they would have to endure in front of hundreds of people every time they want to promote their business? To put it in user experience terms, some men in the room were adding unnecessary and unfair friction for women founders.” […]
@Mark – I honestly am not sure why expecting to be treated like a professional and a person gets equated with having a “social agenda.”
It’s a waste of my time as a professional to have to wade through ignorant assumptions and unfounded challenges to my abilities before I can actually get to my work. Not to mention having to manage sexual advances at times and in situations when that behavior is not appropriate – like while I’m working.
If I bring these things up at work, it’s because I am trying to give 100% to my job and something out of my control is taking up my resources. I have more respect for my own time and my company’s time than to waste it dealing on my own with an issue that belongs at the management level.
I’d also ask how someone who actively tries not to have firsthand experience with women in the workplace could be considered as having any credible, evidence-based judgment on whether this is a “real” crisis.
Thank you for writing this article. Not being in the tech industry, I didn’t realized just how sexist it is. I will be sending the link to this post to my daughter, a senior in high school. She’s currently torn between mathematics, the physical sciences and some form of engineering as a major. I don’t want to discourage her, but I do want her to be armed with knowledge. If she knows what she might expect in another 5 years or so, she might better face the challenges pointed out here. And who knows, maybe she’ll even pave the way for change.
I don’t know if anyone mentioned this in an earlier comment, but the kind of behavior described in this post would be considered sexual harassment in the workplace. It’s a shame that tech conferences don’t engender professionalism. Just food for thought…
Pen Umbra – please don’t let this discourage her from entering a technical field. I believe part of the solution here is to bring more women in. I would hate to disillusion her before she even gives it a chance! More and more women are rising to the top, despite the challenges. If it’s what she loves, she should absolutely do it, and should know that there’s a lot of community support, despite the anonymous comments posts like this seem to attract.
Eva: Kris was replying to JM’s derailing comment (what about the men), circling it back around to a more constructive and on-topic approach (working together to break down gender barriers).
Sheila: Good links, thanks.
[…] Men of Silicon Valley: We’re sexist, we just don’t know it. A nice writeup about how progressive men aren’t as always progressive as they like to […]
So how does a massively underpaid girl, working in a blatantly sexist organization, in a terrible economy without many jobs available, manage to get a raise? The men aren’t being underpaid. It’s only me.
[…] vastly outnumbered by men. Perhaps, if women were given the chance to discover their interests and made to feel more welcome in the industry, there might be many […]
[…] ads to these reasons: the horrible UX and the company’s 2012 support of SOPA. And, yes, Silicon Valley is home to one of the most sexist industrieson the […]
[…] vastly outnumbered by men. Perhaps, if women were given the chance to discover their interests and made to feel more welcome in the industry, there might be many […]
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Yes, there is the blatant sexism (and age discrimination) in the valley and the tech field. I worked at a Fortune 100 tech company and ALL of my bosses, up the ladder, were white male. There is a reason all the tech companies (Google, Apple, etc.) do not release diversity metrics. (btw, I am white.)
At one company, I was once given a ‘lawsuit raise’. That is … an independent study identified me as someone so underpaid compared to my male counterparts that the company risked a discrimination lawsuit. I was no flunky either. I was the Senior Engineering / Architect of a mission critical manufacturing application. (I was told the real reason because it was an off-cycle raise and my boss was honest.) At another company, I was once told that I did not make as much as a male subordinate because ‘he had a family'; I was married and the breadwinner at the time. There are all kinds of reasons men justify paying women less.
[…] Brian Scates wrote in Medium, “The first step toward fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one.” […]
[…] Brian Scates wrote in Medium, “The first step toward fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one.” […]
[…] Brian Scates wrote in Medium, “The first step toward fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one.” […]
[…] of a post than an article), Wired, The Hindu, CIO, The Times of London, PandoDaily, Recode, sxates.com, The Week, American Prospect, The New Economy, Policy.Mic, and CBS Bay Area. Such sexism is […]
Brian, thank you so much for speaking up instead of standing by. I’m excited to link to this post in the next edition of my weekly email newsletter for allies (Ally as a Verb: http://tinyletter.com/krotondo).
Also thought you might be interested in Lewis’ Law, as it’s clearly in effect here: “comments on any article about feminism justify feminism”: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Lewis'_Law